Text highlighted with yellow highlighter, I directly quoted in my research paper.
Text highlighted with pink highlighter, help provide context for my research paper, which I would recommend reading.
Sections 1-3 and 7 are relevant for the research paper.
Dividers are in place sectioning the interview for easy referencing.
I made contact with artist Evan Schwartz, to discuss his practice, current trans debates, and to find out more about some of my favourite artworks that inspire me as a fellow transgender artist.
Currently, it is edited up to a certain point, and I've taken out the introductions and general conversation at the end.
Section 1: Practice
Ashton (A): So how would you describe your practice?
Evan (E): Suspended… It's not frequent, or constant, by any means. I'm not constantly creating, I go through long periods, years where I don't make anything. I just had to be moved, and so essentially my practice is living my life and then when I experience something that makes me think, that's when I start to create. I start to think about how I can express that, and it's usually around trans identity, not general trans identity, but my own experience. I can't speak for everybody's experience, we're all very different. So essentially, it really comes from when I feel a deep divide in this particular way as it relates to my identity, that's what moves me to create something. That being said, my inspiration is not limited to me. There's a project that I've been really wanting to do for the past several years that I just haven't ripped the Band-Aid off yet and it's about identity, but it's not about being trans or anything like that. I just realised it's been five years since the Best Man show and I haven't made anything since then? So yeah.
Section 2: Gender Politics
A: And so I guess that also leads into the next one, how do you feel your artwork fits into contemporary society? So debates around gender politics in America at the moment, especially with work like the one of you transitioning, that showed the equal moments of puberty?
E: Can you repeat the last part like about my transaction?
A: How do you feel your artwork fits into debates around gender politics in America at the moment? I guess everything that came with the Trump legislation and stuff.
E: It's hard to answer since the work has been kind of quiet. There are many trans artists who are making waves and getting noticed and in the mainstream. At that level? I'm not one of them, that I know of, unless someone hasn't told me something, but I'm pretty sure I'm not one of them. So I mean it fits perfectly, because the series was five years ago, and it took me a few years to make. The Reclaiming Puberty series was my first one, it was my thesis for college. And I got a show from that before I graduated and that was when this stuff wasn't talked about very much yet, it was sort of on the precipice of becoming a thing, so it got a lot of attention and the gallery noticed it because of that, because it was different, and now it's becoming part of our language. So I think that, whether or not someone knows my work, and I think most people don't know my work, everything I do is really just about humanising myself and connecting the dots in society and in day-to-day. The phobia comes from that we all have to deal with this fear, I feel that at the very basic level, the Best Man series and even the Reclaiming Puberty series, is about normalcy and my life is not on the outside very different, as appearances go, but that is my very privileged experience. I can walk down the street and not fear for my life, and I've been able to do that for many, many years. That wasn't always the case, but it is now. That's my normal since two years into my transition. So, it's a hard question to answer because I'm not at the forefront of it, at least my work is not at the forefront of it. But I think one of the most important things that when there is racism, and when there's phobia, and when there's violence, it's an “us” and “them” thing, and with this work I hope to magnify the aspect that there's very little difference and just bridging those gaps without having too many like cliches. But the gaps are real and that's why I make this work. I created the Best Man series in order to have those experiences, because I still don't have them, based on my own psychology; or I do have them and I don't realise it, because I inherently feel separate. I don't even know if I answered your question, but yeah.
A: No, you did. I get what you're saying, I’ve had that in my own experience with my male friends, the majority of the time you don't feel very different, but there are these small gap things, where you feel like you are having to prove yourself. Almost as if you are having to learn a new language through transitioning.
E: Yeah. The gaps also change, and the gaps expand, and contract. The gaps that I feel with cis-males are not the gaps that cis-males think I have. The difference that I feel from them is not always what is assumed, and what drives that phobia. The phobia, and the politics is all about the body, and the body is only one piece of it. So, it really just depends on my perception at the moment. Am I harnessing my trans identity as a further enlightenment of the human race? Or am I feeling separate? I think that there is a broad misunderstanding of who we are as people. For starters, we're f*cking people, so we feel the same as anyone else about things, and there's quite the spectrum of personalities, values, politics, religions and morals. But I think that the crux of any series I've done on my trans identity is that the gaps and the connections are not what is assumed, it goes beyond the body, so I think that for others to know that? And to believe it? The challenge is to see past the body.
Section 3: Trump Legislation
A: Yeah. How do you feel about the Trump legislation and the changes he brought in and did that affected trans people in America? Loaded question.
E: Oh, I love it! Thank God he came along and saved us from ourselves! No, I mean, I obviously… it's horrifying. Yeah, it's… it's horrifying. I think I am less horrified at his individual beliefs and actions, and more horrified at folks who support supported him and were able to look past that because they like this one other thing. It's gaslighting, right? I'm going to pick and choose my values, “well, I do believe in this piece, so it’s a ‘you really have to take the good with the bad’ kind of thing” no, it's all bad! But that's politics too, and actually, what he did was kind of remarkable in a way, where he brought it way beyond politics and it just became about human rights at the bare basic minimum. This isn't about taxes, this is about dignity and respect and existence, and when a person in power tries to eliminate the existence of a group of people. Which in all fairness, we've been trying to do as a country for many, many, many years, just more subtly. When it's just blatant, it becomes something very different. So obviously I hate him. But I think it was two-pronged: there is a lot more violence against trans people, there is a lot more phobia, there is a lot more misinformation floating around because we are in the spotlight. So the two-pronged piece is that we are in the spotlight and there is some positive to that as well, the fact that we exist is not being ignored. And it can push people like me, who have been in the background for over a decade, just to live my life in the way that I needed to in those times and it pushed me out in a major way, because I could not stand by and be trans and do nothing. But I think they really approached it the way that they approach racism. It doesn't fit into their Lily-white world of understanding, and it just showed me how…
Actually, I was talking to mom about something a little unrelated recently where we were talking about child development and it's just interesting to me why and how men seem to physically develop later than women, in their brain, and she said “well, it's probably a very ancient thing, men were the hunter/gatherers”, and I was thinking “well yeah, now that there's nothing to hunt or gather, what's their ******* purpose? So that's why they scream louder, they're like ‘pay attention to me!’” There’s this clawing for power and attention and outrageous things that is probably nature trying to give them purpose, and I didn't used to say “them”, I used to say “us”, but I don't relate at all and I'm OK with that. I don't relate to the male experience, the cis-male experience, and I don't put myself in that same bucket at all because I wasn't raised that way and that really affects how you grow up and who you are as an adult, your abilities to function in certain ways, your ability to exist in the world.
So, to go back to your question after a long detour, it really just showed me like “wow… it's really sad that these grown ass men are acting like a bunch of children” This is elementary school stuff, its what children say, “boys have penises and girls have vaginas”, that's how you learn anatomy and it's literally the same thing. It just showed me that we clearly need that generation to die out, we need all those old white men to go away, but they won't, they have younger followers. It says we need an adult in the room, but what does that mean? I don't know, he's gone… the problems aren't gone, but I’m really enjoying not hearing about him so much. But on the other side, revolution comes from conflict and oppression, and so much amazing trans visibility has come out of this period and so much protest – and not just physical protesting with signs – music, art. There's been a lot of people running for office and winning, and there has been so much societal protest from the trans community because of this, because you have to, because no one is going to care for us the way that we care for us, and no one is going to stand up for us the way that we do. Allyship is great, but at the end of the day, we are the ones who have to take care of ourselves, right? And. So with the violence and with the hate came outrage – in some of the most beautiful ways. So you can't sweep us under the rug anymore, because we're trending now.
A: Yeah. I came out in 2016 in my foundation year of college and started to make work about myself to help process that and at that point, it was a struggle to find trans artists, but then five years on and it's hard not to because Trump has very much brought out artistic protest.
Section 4: Protest
I know that your practise feels suspended, but one question I had was, “Do you feel that your artwork was affected by the Trump legislation? And did it become a way to respond?” Even though you didn't make anything, did it affect ideas for work?
E: It affected my drive to work, it made me want to do something, and it made me beat myself up for not having anything. So it made me want to use this and protest, but I can't force it. Yeah, so for my own practice, it didn't really do anything and it's interesting because I started… So many of the trans folks and the queer community are younger, not all of them, but I started this 20 years ago – and there were many that came before me as well, I'm not the beginning of time – but I almost feel that if I were to make something in response to being trans, I almost feel like a poser or something, or like I'm trying to write someone else's name because “oh, it's popular now!” unauthentic, which is the opposite of what it is because this is my experience too. It’s been a conflicting thought, but that's also my own self-deprecating brain, some sort of flaw that I'm a piece of garbage, or that I'm a fake. Part of my trans experience is feeling like a fraud, so it's really made me feel like a fraud of my own, and as an artist. They're at the popular table, and I'm like “I have stuff too…” so it's complex, it hasn't really affected my practice whatsoever; to be perfectly honest, it made me reassess where I belong.
I would say that particularly this past summer (2020), with Brianna Taylor, George Floyd, and countless others – the summer of protests, basically. I did not go to a protest, I was scheduled to and then I chickened out, and I had this like conflict with myself about going to take pictures, because I was like, “this is my job, this is what I'm supposed to do…” but is it though? Is it my place? First of all, there's a lot of people doing this. What am I adding? And more importantly, what am I taking away? Am I adding value or am I adding harm? As a white person… As a assumably cis-white-male with a camera. Am I adding harm? This is not a parade. This is not an event. This is outrage over wrongful death and violence. So, as someone who is not a photojournalist by trade, I didn’t want to take advantage of the situation to slap on my Instagram, and other people were doing that. Let’s leave that to them, because it was too conflicting.
So that's where it affected me, I would say with the trans stuff. It didn't really impact my art practice, but it impacted my voice in other ways, and it impacted my visibility. I came out in places that I did not plan to, and it was extremely vulnerable and not always a positive experience, so it was like super triggering super vulnerable. But I'm not sorry I did it, it pushed me in other ways.
Section 5: Privelege
A: Yeah, and do you think your artwork will change over the Biden legislation? That post-Trump you will find your voice again within art?
E: I never think about it in terms of who's in office, I just think about it in terms of my own evolution as a person. Because I have a certain level of privilege, where I'm not in a place in my life where I'm not immediately affected by who’s in office, at least not on a day-to-day basis: what I do for a living, where I work, where I live, my relationship status, my family acceptance. I'm not an active victim of whoever is in power. I haven't only done work on myself, but we always bring ourselves to the space and we also – regardless of what the subject is, something has to pull you to that. All subjects have been documented at nauseam, but we all bring our own eye and experience to those subjects, which makes them unique, which makes it our own. In my experience, my trans experience, has been very insular and self-centred. When I say insular, I don't mean that I didn't have a community or know people – I didn't get here on my own by any means, quite the opposite. But it is a self-centred process because, I don't know about you, but I'm constantly (not as much as I used to, but at least on a daily basis) thinking about how I'm presenting in the world in some way. And if it's not my first thought, when I travel for example, if it's not my first thought, it's because I've been invisible in the world for a long time, so that's why it's not my first thought, but it is a thought process. So, I think that whoever is in office, it doesn't affect my drive, it doesn't affect my inspiration, but it affects what I'm worried about.
I love old stuff, I love antiques and vintage stuff, and I love architecture, and I had never really been to The South here – you know, trans Jew go South? Bad idea. But there's this thing called ‘The Longest Yard Sale’ every summer, and it’s a 600 mile yard sale. It goes from the top of Michigan down to Alabama, and it happens in fields and it happens at convention centres or barns or suburb yards – whatever the geography of that certain area. It's on one route too, so whatever is happening along that road and in that state town, that's where you set up shop. I always wanted to do that, so I took a solo road trip, I drove down South and I did not go to Alabama because I wasn't ready for that. But I did drive through West Virginia, and I started the ‘shopping’ if you will in Tennessee. Up through Tennessee, and through Kentucky and then came back. It was incredible and it was gorgeous, and it really gave me a different appreciation for this country. Just as far as nature goes and I love people, both observing and interacting, but I was nervous because the way I see myself is different than the way others see me, whether that's good or bad, it depends on what good is, but I am going down consciously as a trans Jew. To me? I think I look like a trans Jew. It took a while for it to sink in that people may not know that I'm trans, and if they're not looking for it, you don't see it. Though at the worst-best I passed as a bald Italian person, just because of stereotypes, features, but no one did or said anything? But I was nervous about it, and I would not have gone – I wanted to go this summer, I was ready to go this summer, and COVID, but it was a larger risk because of what was going on in this world. My artist and photographer heart was going to ignore that, but because of what Trump was inciting and encouraging it would not have been worth it anxiety wise.
So, I think in that way, who our leader is – I mean everyone exists regardless with their beliefs, regardless of who's in power, and sometimes when the opposing party is in power, you just scream louder? Yeah so it really depends. But there was a general acceptance of violence against black people and people of colour, and queers and immigrants. Whereas under this administration, I don't believe that that will be the focus like that or that will be encouraged – quite the opposite. It affects the way I think about things, but it may not affect what I do.
But to go back to the self-centred piece, for me it doesn't matter who's in power. I'm still having my own experience here, and the way I evolve as a human, the way I evolve as a trans person, is not internally so far affected by who's in power, because of my privilege. It's almost petty. It's real, but I have time to be introspective in this way, because I'm not running for my life. Not that people who are running for their life also aren't introspective, I'm saying I have the space to do that.
A: Yeah, a different sense of freedom with it.
E: Right, yes. But I'm also in a different place than I was when I transitioned. I'm not obsessed with it as much.
Section 6: Shorts
A: And would you be able to tell me more about some of the works, specifically the Best Man series? I'd love to know more about some of the images, like the skinny dipping and the shorts one – I really resonate with the shorts one, surprisingly.
E: Really? That's so good to hear. Let me ask you first then, what about it? What about that photograph do you resonate with?
A: Yeah, so I came out in my foundation year of college and then I did a gap year purposely to start on hormones before going to uni. And then when I started uni, this my third year now, and I was a few months on T, so enough that only people in the community could have recognised I was trans? There was this one gay guy on my course that said "if you hadn't said anything, I was going to out you", which was lovely... But nobody else had clocked me at all, they were very much in shock. Because I realised about a week in that I better start telling people actually as all my work in foundation was about being trans, and that would probably happen, and people question and realise, so I may as well get this out the way and do it in small groups. But the best friend who I made in the first week, and is probably my most masculine relationship I've had - he's over 6 foot and with a twin brother and an older brother, that "you must be a man" background, but completely accepting. And in winter he will still wear shorts, even when it's snowing, but I started off uni wearing jeans all the time and I would mock him for wearing shorts, and then come second year there was me right alongside him wearing shorts, even though it was freezing because I decided jeans are fairly uncomfortable. And I looked at that image an thought "I'd love to take a picture like that of me and him in shorts", that very much summed up our relationship to me.
E: Okay. Okay, interesting. So I've actually found myself recently trying to describe this photograph to a group of co-workers who, at the time, most did not know I was trans, only one person at the table did. And I could sense the confusion, because I was trying to describe it in a way that didn't out me. And why would you even notice this? Like I don't understand how you notice this or why this is important. I grew up in a really waspy suburb of Chicago, and there were lots of blonde people, and we were the Jews. Are you familiar with Tina Barney?
A: No?
E: She's this incredible photographer, I highly recommend you look her up. I actually used some of her work as inspiration when I was doing this because this project evolved over time: what I was going to do with it, or like how I was going to execute it, and what it was going to be. And I associate her work and this image, and some of these stereotypes, to catalogue people, the pop collar, but she does an incredible job of capturing this protestant lifestyle essentially, I'm not even sure about the religion.
So, there's this image burned into my brain of going to the beach when I was younger and just like really honing in – or not even at the beach, but that's where I think of – just honing in on when it's short season, these blonde, semi-buff, athletic looking men with thicker blonde leg hair and the sun shone through it, you know? But it made it glow like gold. I did not capture it as well here, because that was the circumstance, but how I visualise it in my head, or how I remember it, it was one of these things that was just the height of masculinity to me. In a way that's just sort of like “I'm not even trying, this is just my body? It’s just legs, you know? I'm wearing shorts because it's weather appropriate, we’re at the beach, or we're at school, but it's warm out!” And in a way, at the age that I started to notice that, it did represent puberty. But it also represented privilege, in a way that I could never have, it was a piece of separation for me. I definitely grew up with privilege. But it was different, it was multifaceted, there was a piece that separated me. I didn't visually fit in, I didn't fit in in any way really, but I didn't visually fit in, or aesthetically on the surface. Even with the seersucker shorts and the Sperry boat shoes, that was the uniform, and whether it was seersucker or was khaki shorts, that was the uniform of my town essentially and it elicited this sense of comfort in me and also aspiration and what it is to be a man, you know? Not even a man, just like a boy. I wasn't really thinking in terms of ‘man’ then, because I was just thinking about the people who I was surrounded by, so we were teenagers or a little younger. I think I also associate mental health with this as well, because this image to me – this memory – also represents everything being perfect, and my idea of perfection being blonde, athletic build, boy. With the Christmas card picture, and the Golden Retriever and the Forest Greenhouse and the Navy car, like these specific colorways, and breeds and brands and lighting, and the sense that my life is normal, and I'm not really worried about anything or you would never know that's where I grew up and I think it was more conscious that I couldn't get there… as a Jew, at the time… than as a queer. Because I wasn't really aware of that yet. There was a gender aspect to it for sure, I knew that I would never get there because of the way I was born, and the way that my body evolves at that time, but there was also an element of being a Jew and my experience as a Jew was dark haired, I looked at every single separation piece. I didn't have this specific blonde image, it was very Aryan, and I subscribed to that as perfection, or no problems, or no struggle we're fitting in. But this project was actually going to go in the direction of creating a catalogue, a polo catalogue or something, and I really looked at those to inspire me, because that's what I thought men did together. They captured those moments for a reason, right? So… that was my idea of feeling at home and comfort and that I finally made it. So this is part becoming that, fitting in, and the bigger piece of it is not even noticing it. It's completely not even important, t's just leg hair. Ironically, you could barely see any leg hair in this picture, but whatever, not perfect. So yeah, it's effortless.
EDITED PROPERLY AS FAR AS HERE
Section 7: Nudity
A: Would you be able to tell me more about the skinny dipping pictures and what that was like using nudity?
E: Yes. It was awful. I hate bodies of. Butter. I think they're beautiful to look at. I am not a skinny dipper. I don't like being naked that much, and I don't specifically, I specifically do not like. Natural bodies of water, especially not at night. I'm. I'm not. I'm not a like swimmer. This was the first photograph that I thought of doing, and I it's the one of the reasons why it took me. It's not the. First photograph I took. But it's the one that I had in my head since the beginning. Because of that body divide and like the freedom of course like this like. But it's also like the scrappy do like. I mean this this also can elicit childhood in our elephants, but like. There's this. It's interesting. Making me describe this because. Sometimes it's really hard for you to describe. As I'm sure you're clearly gathered from my tangents, what's going on my brain but. Well, let's start with this. A. This is not something. I've ever done. I've never done this event right here and it's one of those things that I always. Always. I envy. I envy the ability to. They appear. And be with some buddies a. Not care enough that we're all naked together because even like it's again, it's like you're not even noticing. Like, it's just like it's inherent. It's just like the same. As the. Legs. It's it's effortless. Maybe that's the theme here is effortless AB having the body to do that without any question and like confidence in that. So it's effortless, it's confidence. But also like this, it's intimacy and. And there's no speaking involved. It's just it's physical intimacy, in a platonic way, and it's risky. It's fun. So. This was, I don't know where. This popped into my head. I've watched a lot of TV and movies, so I'm. Sure this it. It sure it came from whatever, but. Just this like idea of like. No shame, this effortless, shameless. Teenage. Like. Spur of the moment thing like you don't plan to go skinny dipping with your buddies. You know this. This is spontaneous moment. And I knew that this picture had to be set 40 by 60, so I knew it had to be. Quite large. Because I wanted the anatomy to be bit apparent. You know, and when you if you walk by, I mean, I don't know as my it's I can't say what people see when they walk by. But I wanted it to be big enough to where you noticed the differences in anatomy. But that wasn't the focal point. Like you're not walking around like looking at crotch, you know, but like, you're like, just like, check it out. Maybe if you're at the show and you know the topic, maybe you are, but. But it needed to be. UM. I wanted it to be an image that showed at the very base level. Three, like a like a cool photo basically of like three guys doing something spontaneous and then like risky together. But you have to look a little bit. Or know something to. To know. To go deeper. So that was the. That was the that was the basis. Of it for sure. You know and. I hated taking this picture. I had to do. I had to jump in the water so many times. It was just. Awful. I shot it from a canoe my I had. I had tried I. I had a friend who was supposed to come with us. To to help me shoot. And they cancelled. They couldn't do it. So it was. It was like I'm in a boat. Like it was very complex. But it's perfect. I I love this picture so much. And I think that this.UM. The the the images that I. Like the most tend to cycle. And there are some that like I'm just like, whatever. I just, I love. I just love this picture so much. And there's just it can it works across to me in my opinion as an artist and as a person with eyes like it it works across. So many different levels. And also like the size of it. Like I'm not someone who, like, there's a lot of customers who like shoot and print real big, like as a practise. I am not one of those people and I sometimes I think like if I just blew my pictures up really big, they would be noticed or like not noticed but like they would be.Like. People be like, oh, it's amazing you. Know because they see the sides of it, so it must be important. I tend to not do that because I think every image. Deserves its own. Box, you know, like it deserves. It's a packaging, so.But the the size of this aside from. The the anatomy detail. Is like this is very simply like this is an intimate, spontaneous, troublemaking moment.UM. Let's expose that.So I you know. It's and it's not a small moment either. It's, you know, it's complex. Being that. You know. The people in the photograph were not children. They're very much aware of their bodies, they're aware of their sexuality. But their bond? But none of that matters because of their bond, and by matters like it's not a relevant detail in this moment. It's all about. The risk it's all about the bond that this will create, that those like inside jokes or like private moments. That you share with. People that you're closest with, like that's. That's what I crave, and that's incidentally what I actually have in my. Life. And it's so hard for me to. Know that to see it that way.Because I really just focus on the separation.Inherently. Across my life, not just because of trans like, that is a theme. You know, I've been told in one way or another since I was a child that I don't belong. So that and and it's not a poor me moment and it's also not a transpacific moment. It's a lot of people have that experience in one way or another and way worse than myself. Not that it doesn't feel like ****, but like, you know, it's all relative. But.This this like snapshot of belonging. It's a snapshot like we're in this together.And it'll be over in a second. And then we move on. That's that's basically the best way to describe male relationships. Now we move on.
A: And do you think you'd ever use nudity in your work again?
E: Yeah. I almost started. I started actually. Uh. I don't remember when this was, but it was. Definitely after this. The series I started. I started and very quickly stopped taking colloids and myself. Really close because I was trying to do some an exploration of. I was doing something that I normally don't do that I've been instructed to do. Actually, the way I approached the reclaiming puberty series is different than the way I approached this one and what I normally tend to do because I'm so afraid and like like I like to overthink things. So a photographer friend of mine. Encourage me to. Like shoot it out instead of like overthink it and like try to like devise images in my head like they just said like just keep it like just shoot some really simple moments and like it will develop and you never know what you get from. That and that's how I created it. I didn't use any of the images that I use. As a map for it. In the series. But it helped me understand what I was trying to say. Yeah, in a visual way. And. So I started to do that a little bit with with unity. It was actually after I watched the documentary on Robert Mapplethorpe. Look at the pictures. It is so ******* good. And I was so moved by it and so inspired and so like. Yeah, pretty much it. So I was like I'm, I I started, you know, thinking about the body in a in a slightly different way and sexuality and. So yes, I think I will, but I have no idea what. That looks like. I don't want to do it, but I'm not going to do it as terms of there's a fine line between. Exploitation. And. It it needs to be meaningful. And it and it needs to be in a way that. I hate to say hasn't been done. Before. But it it. I'm not going to do it just to be like this is. What a trans body looks like. I don't. I'm not. Driven by that, at least I'm not. Not anymore. You know, at certain time I was and. I mean in the skating picture, I guess I'm kind of doing that there. But. It's not just about the physical form, so we'll see also knowing very well that like once it's out that you can't take it back. So. TBD on how much I want to expose. Myself. In a. In in terms of like a series. You know. But I'm definitely not opposed to it.
A: I'm just on the website at the moment they're looking at.
E: So am I and click remind myself like, what did I say about this? OK.
NO RESEARCH PAPER REFERENCES BEYOND THIS POINT
A: And. First, tell me about she got a couple of ones about almost just living room snapshots. Kinda thing. Would you be able to talk about them in terms of what? They. Mean to you, Steph?
E: Sure. So that was related to the people I was shooting with. All of these folks are my friends and. And so I wanted to do something with the living room pictures in particular. I wanted to do something that we normally do. Or that would also be would make sense. For that person as little acting as possible. UM. And I also know that. Because. So like, it's also like normal like so much. Of. These relationships happen over long periods of time. And. Not usually around any sort of event you know or like. Like this thing even picture like. That's a moment, you know, but that's not. What's going to make the relationship really about stretching out the time and like being able to exist? And I'm so uncomfortable just sitting around with another guy with this guy. So ******* uncomfortable. Even with people I've known, I've been friends with for like my best friends, like for 20 years. Like, it's so uncomfortable for me. It can depend on the person, but for sure, but I will, but it's just it's not a natural state for me. Like I just I it's very still hard for me to talk to guys and it's still hard for this guys and it's. Still hard for me to.
A: Does that change depending on whether you met them pre or post transitioning?
E: A little bit. But. Not entirely, no. No. I tend to feel the silence, which is the opposite of how these relationships. Evolve, yeah. So. I. The UM. The guy in the picture where we're eating yodels. With on the. Couch. Is the same person in the legs picture. And. Use a little fun fact. I don't know if you like, looked at this closely, but there's the bathtub photo from reclaiming puberty in the background on his wall. This was their apartment. And he's a friend of mine since college. And. Is an interesting relationship like I think with. With him in particular. I needed to do something that was natural because I still crave. That comfortability in doing nothing with him. Even though if I said this to him, he would be like. What like or like? I don't think you. Understand. But I'm very I'm very aware of this I think. This series was was inspired by two separate things. And I'll get back the other, let me. Sorry. Let me go back to the living room. The other living room. Floor like we have. He and I are very different people in a lot of ways, but we're also very similar in some of the ways that actually involves intimate conversations. But one of his favourite things to do is to like. Talk about playing guitar or like, sit around playing or whatever. So it was just about doing nothing like there had to be nothing. It was like relationships and life. This is not a series of like events. You know, like it's just moments. It's like what happens in between, like, yeah, this is the height of intimacy. If you can just do this together and like, not even. Like you're doing your own. Thing in a same space. Like. You don't do that with people that you feel you have to entertain. You don't do the people that with company, you know, you do that with family. And that's sort of how I that's the that's the, the craving I have. I remember I was going to say, oh, yeah, so this this. This was this whole thing was inspired by. My daily life of. Being very close friends with the fella in the. The the yodel picture and the guy. One of the guys jumping off. The pier. And we were. We're all friends from college and. Over the years I've watched them. You know, be best friends and it's been like a a trifecta, but I've always felt like 1/3. Wheel. I don't know if they think I feel that like they, I don't know if they would understand why I feel that way or like. Whatever. But I it's a relationship that I definitely. Need. More reassurance than others in and my role in my place in it. And. Because my relationship with each of them is very different than their relationship with each other, and I want their relationship they have with each other, I don't want. The one that I have. Part of that is because I was. Well, what I can't have and the other. Part is that it just seemed it was more simple. It's incredibly complicated and I'm not going to go into it because I learned things about myself as we grow up and get older, you know, and so like, I've I understand this, these relationships in a very different way than I did when I was shooting this. Yeah. But. I was coming from a place of thinking. If I had had these experiences growing up, maybe I would be able to function that way. UM. It turns out that. In shooting these photos, I was giving a lot of these people those. Moments for the first time. So that just sort of points to my the difference between reality and my perception, yeah. You know, it was very it was very moving and interesting to find. That out. And. And so it's it's not, it's not a CIS versus trans thing. We're all just individuals and depending on your background and where you grew up and how you grew up and who you are as a person. Like. All of these circumstances are very individual. The other moment. That inspired well, the actual event that inspired this entire series was. Uh. Being at my sister's wedding weekend and watching my. At the time soon to be brother-in-law, my now brother-in-law. I was one of the groomsmen, and watching him interact with the other groomsmen and his best man. Who they all went to college together, so they had that like bro relationship. And it just looked exactly like I always imagined it should look, and I could not have felt more on the outside of that and not in the way of like, again, not like Boo Hoo, but. It was just one of these. It was actually. I was very entertained by it in a way. I was like, I was like, I was like. Uh. Like just? Revved by it, I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing because I was. It was like I got to study. Them.
A: Yeah, you could have fed off their energy.
E: Yeah, in a way. And I like really. And, like, one guy, one of his friends in particular. I was like, this guy is like the perfect. Like he like belongs to like a workbook at school. Like, he's like just perfect. You. Know and like. It was just really, you know, the end was like such a stereotype. They're all their tuxedos and roof and cheers. And I was like, where am I? And like, this is so not the life that I'm a part of. But this is just like a regular. This is very traditional also. So it was like, anthropological at the moment. But I became very aware of how I was feeling and. I have learned to. When I'm in a better, when I'm in a good headspace and when I'm like willing to. Study these moments and might just be aware of them. I become very aware of. How I feel different or separate from this and? UM. But in a way that. Is. Intriguing to me? Not in a way of. Not in like a self pity. I'm going to die a long way. Like in the like. I want to study this. It's fascinating to me. And it was really just the cheers moment on the roof that completely trigger this entire project. And the and the the back slap hugs and it was like 30 seconds, not even of a moment. And I was like. What would it take? To be someone's best man. Like what would that feel like to just know that I'm gonna be this person's best man at their wedding? And so it started to I sort of, I like to look at the end and work my way backward. Like what would that look like? Like, what is the evolution? And. But that also like this need to be a best man. It's really about. Security. the way I still it's the way I thought about marriage. It's like. I I want to be married because I want security. That his marriage is. Not that at all. It's still a relationship with another human being that can end at any moment, you know, but the illusion of security. Yeah. The illusion of my place in the world. I need to know my place in the world at all times. And that is what makes me so uncomfortable. With, particularly with CIS men, and particularly with like one-on-one with other groups of of guys with groups of people like fought the gender like with groups of people, I need to know my role and my place in the world. So I know what to expect. So I know if this. Is. Worth. Opening up about. And. The the label really helps me to do that. I could serve as you know, couple of my friends best Manns at any point. And never know it, you know. So it's really and it's also based in the singular like. This idea, this adolescent idea that you have one best friend. And done a lot of work in therapy about this, but it turns out that's not necessarily always the case in adulthood, and you can have many different relationships of many different strengths and time periods and. It's a cycle too, you know, because we evolve and we grow and our needs change and our preferences change and. Our all our circumstances change and some people can show up for you in certain ways at certain times, better than others, and vice versa. Whatever. You know, like it's not set in stone. But I think that the the core of this is stability. And knowing my the world. And having to create these moments. Because they're just so uncomfortable and I just really wanted to experience them, I thought that I was feeling a gap in my in my development. With these moments. But it was the gap I was trying to fill was really. It's not like it. I I saw it as a check box almost and it just became so much more than that. Like it was just not. There's no formula. For who you are or who you become, or the kinds of relationships you know how you. Relate to. People you know. And that was proven to me when the first person I shot with was like. You're giving this to me also, like I haven't had this. And. You know, so it's. You just don't know. I don't know. Just it's just so much more complicated than that, and I think the the other piece to to. Tag on to that is that. I don't want it to be so complicated, which is why I to the label, which is why I cling to the. Prescription. Or the equation of what? This is because the other piece I'm a complicated person, like everyone's complicated humans, are complex no matter. How much you? Say you are or not, or. Think or or experience whatever. We're all very complex and. So I'm not special in that way. I think that. But the way that I view. Others, and the way I perceive others and the relationships. I see myself as more complex than the people I surround myself with on a regular basis. And. Or complicated, I'll say complicated because I'm not trying to insult anyone like, they're not like, you know, but like, they're, I see my brain is more complicated. So I think I'm just trying to not be that in that way. Like I think that that's my key. My key to having this. Expected experience or the stability is to be less complex. That would be so boring.
A: That's nice. I get that completely. That. I'd like to could do almost a similar documentation of Maine and the animation housemate. Where last year could have, we weren't that close. It was could have the three of us, but moved in together this year. It was His mind and his relationship was brought together by the girl we live with, and we can have only really talked through her. We didn't talk on our own thing, but then it came to this year and we realised she's rather psychotic and manipulative. Ohh for outlook but and and we have gotten incredibly close in such a short space of time and. Of. Realised that in so many ways we're the same person, even down to realising we had the exact same pair of Batman pyjamas with the detachable Cape as a child. But we have never discovered anyone else having having I could have. Yeah, could have. Amazing weird little moments like that, or can have a film that we've could have loved for our childhood, and we've never found anybody else who knew it. And we've realised that you've worn knows it.
E: That's awesome.
A: thing that. It's a completely different relationship to anything I've had before. It is like. Curve, an older brother can have relationship which. It's been amazing. Thing really haven't. A whole different. Yeah, a whole different type of relationship. thing. I mean that Camaraderie in the house as well to get through it.
E: Yeah, for sure. That's that's that's. That's pretty interesting because it's it's very that's a very different, I mean not to continue the stereotype, but like there are. There's nature and nurture and that reminds me of. Like the way I was doing research for this project. I started it and. Just as far as talking to people. Sorry, my cat's like making some weird noise and I was talking to an artist friend of mine. Who has a teenage nephew? And. You know, she described it as like, you know, like as a woman when you make, like a new friend, it's like you meet someone you're let's take a pottery class together. But like watching her like nephew like. And like, watching like people we like, knew, like we had in common, like walk around and develop a friendship like they would just develop it, like going on. Like they just go for. Like a walk. Yeah. Or you can walking around this, the town, whatever, and the neighbourhood. Like ******* saying, nothing like doing nothing, just walking and like it just evolves over years.You know and like that. It just fascinated me so. This because I I I have. You can't just flip a switch like I have that inherent like, let's take a pottery class. But like. You know, like who? Whatever. And it depends on the person. But like, I'm looking at stereotypes right now, but. But I think that like. That's. So I find myself consciously having to like. Slow down, you know. But.
A: Almost hurt yourself where you feel like you might be forcing it.
E: Yeah, I. Right. Or it's just sort of like this is not? The dynamic, that's not how this relationship. In particular, will evolve. Necessarily and and so. But some people, some guys it will like, yeah, cause everyone's ******* different. Like, this is not like we don't live in 55 anymore, but like people are expressing themselves in all different kinds of ways but. Uh. But. Like with your friend like you, it took a period of time and like you had that common realisation. It's. Like you didn't know that you. You found that bond through like a. A shared realisation on a couple times, you know, over. A period of. Time. And that's what these moments. Are, yeah.
A: That's where it is. Curvier, a convict. There's not that. I found with masculine relationships before, but I I would feel awkward. If it was just me and them, and I would feel more a need to feel the silence. But whereas we can just sit for, you know, several hours. Barely talking. just, you know, doing our own work with something on the TV. And occasionally, you know, we'll, we'll hear something. We're like, yeah, that that reminds me of the of one figure. We'll look at them and laugh thing. But but he can mostly just be silent and stuff. Which is. Yeah, it's a completely different bond. thing.
E: Nice. Yeah, it is. That's, that is. The security like, that's the comfortability, no.
A: Yeah. It was. It was interesting to I was glad that I discovered your series before that. Can affect it because it made it much more interesting to As watch it evolve. And progress. Because it was seeing that difference. Yeah, yeah.
E: Interesting Steve discovered this before this relationship. Started to evolve. Ah. So how did it impact that at all? Like what? How did it change? Can you just tell me more? About that.
A: Yeah, I guess it made me. So watch it more closely. For the differences in relationships I've had before. Of it, where I probably wouldn't have otherwise. It probably would have just been a oh, this is this different thing, but. It made me looked for how it's different and could have questioned why. Whereas yeah, I don't think I would have in that same way had it not discovered your series first. It's probably not a fault that would have entered my head really. It would have just been like ohh. This is cool.
E: Well, I'm so sorry. That I made you think. sometimes that's like the worst possible. That's really interesting. That's that's cool to hear, because I always wonder like does this like?Like after like a show or what like this is ever like impact anybody or like does this have an effect on anything anymore, you know ever so cool.It's very cool to hear that. And I've also, I will say that. It's really. It's really important to look for the similarities.It's really. It's instantiable for me to find the differences, and that's while that may drive my artwork, it makes me crazy. You know, it doesn't allow me to see what I actually have.And doing the series about differences and similarities like this bond like. It made me identify what I have already. I thought I was missing it, but I already have it.You know, it just doesn't look. Like a catalogue.
A: No. Yeah. She could have. I I could I could have get that, but I could have came once transitioning I could have. Expected. My relationships with CIS men to evolve to that. What you're seeing on TV and stuff. You can expect it to just be completely different, but obviously you're still the same person. Cooking so it's not and it becomes something that you don't you don't see on TV because. You know, on TV that you don't see the picture of one person who's had both experience of, you know, female male relationships and has no experience in male male relationships thing that. Yeah, you don't have something a guide to look at as to what it should look like.
E: Right. Well, I think that we all experienced that as humans, you know, we we start like, I mean, let's talk about parents. I mean, let's not because it'll take for. ******* ever but. Like, that's the first relationship that we see. You know, that's like, that's the first like if you. Grow up with. Two parents who are married, like that's the first. That's your impression of marriage. Yeah. For better or worse, you know, so. We all have that and that's the other thing. It's that this is not a a trans. This is not unique to trans people. We might be aware of it in a certain way and we're I think we're we're hyper aware. In the most painful and the most beautiful way, like it is such a ******* gift and a curse. I would love to not think about any of this, but it makes life really rich because the thing that I love. Like when you said that like, it doesn't look like the way like it's like TV lied to us you. Know. But. The one of the reasons why I love people so much is. That you. Don't know what that person's been through. Like if I let's go back to the catalogue. If I'm flipping through a catalogue and see some like. You know, freaking. Greek God, like in Apollo, whatever, like on the beach with like running the football like you know, the rugby shirt, whatever like. He could have grown up being like sexually assaulted, you know, like he could have cancer he could like. Be having his own identity crisis like he could struggle with anxiety like you don't. Not that everything has to be. Catastrophic. You know, like like. Peoples, it doesn't like worst case scenario of course, but yeah. Like. Or you see like a. I remember who it was. I mean, it's a lot of people, but. Like you, you. Walk by the beautiful woman walked down the street and be like, oh, she's probably like God easy. You know, it's like. Maybe ******* not like maybe she has like. You know, like maybe not everything was handed to hers because she's pretty. Like maybe she had to ******* work for it because she had, like, no one taking care of. Her growing up and.You know, she parented her siblings and you know we don't. Know hmm. And so this is all based on assumption.And it's it's a liar. So that's, I don't know, that's just why I just that's why. It's a nice reminder to know that, like everyone is complex and everyone has their own. Story. Yeah, yeah. Trans folks are very they're special in certain ways, but we're. I think our super power like I consider being trans my superpower just because of the way I'm able to see things and my as of my dual experience.
A: Hmm. Yeah. It's like a bit of a X-ray vision on life. And why?
E: It absolutely is. We can make it a lot more difficult too, but.It's an X-ray vision on life for sure. But that means that we have to be able to, we have to be able to. Have empathy for those who are not. In our experience as well, yeah. Because it's not an US or them thing in reality, you know and or and actually in reality it is, but like it's not. Person to person. My point being that everyone's talking complicated. I think we all got our back. Stories you know. Yeah. So everyone's got a backroom.
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