I joined a free visiting artist talk at the University of Tennessee, of which the artist and themes discussed still influence my work today. I emailed the Head of Fine Art to see if I could join any further conversations with Cassils, and Jason was delighted to include me.
In total, I attended three talks with the University of Tennessee. The first was their Spring Visiting Artist Programme, of which Cassils was their first artist, that I have made notes on. The second, is a discussion with the University’s Master of Fine Art students around Professional Practice, and the third will be with the University’s trans and non-binary students (so not necessarily artist’s). The following transcript is from the second talk, I mostly listened and found the discussion very informative.
I have gone over and corrected his response to my personal question below, and then after that is the full, unedited transcript.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------Ashton: And if I could jump in with the last question, so you use your body as the subject of your works, to portray your contexts. How do you feel being both the subject and the artist betters your understanding of the work, and how other people understand your work?
Cassils: I mean, I think that's a really complicated question. I think it really gets to the core of what it is that you want to express and how it is that you're going to do it, and just because you yourself are represented, doesn't mean that someone else is going to see it. How do we create these exchanges where we see beyond the surface of our bodies, is something that I'm quite interested in. And I think in my early work, my work was very much focused on my representation, even if I was playing with things like darkness and fire and ice as materials that would create a barrier between you and I. I think a lot of what I was interested in was problematizing this idea of what it was to commodify, and to voyeuristically look at others. So again, I think it really depends on what the goal is, and how you want to get there. I think earlier than that it was like I needed to see representations, and I wasn't. I made those representations in a very visible way, but as I continued, I felt like there was an expectation for me to make a work about a fetishized muscular body, and there's a lot more to my work than that actually. And so I'm going to remove my body, but still place the body as a sort of indexing device: be it leaving you with a sculpture that's formed by a body, or a tank of urine that's an accumulation of fluid that has accumulated due to an oppressive government ordinance, or if it is a glass sculpture that is an encapsulated breath. This idea of thinking about abstraction as a way of speaking to the specifics? Abstraction of something like urine: could have been my urine, your urine, Jason's urine, anybody's urine. So, how do we, instead of saying "well, that's a trans issue", actually, what if you came in and you heard this audio of someone talking about a child's body. What if that was your child? Or your niece? Or you? Is there ways that we can think about bodily function, and the humanity of corporealism, as a way of us being able to engage each other as humans across devices and divides, is something that I'm really interested. I'm less interested in this idea of me speaking for myself, and making work about identity. I mean, that's certainly a part of it, but I'm also very interested in complicating that and thinking about "yes, there is my identity, but where do I end and you start? Where are we in relation to each other? Where if they're coming for you in the morning, they're coming for me at night." People ask a lot about self-care these days, and my question is, isn't self-care about looking after each other? Isn't it about you bolstering each other, such that when you graduate, you can continue to create? There's so many different ways in which, what we do with ourselves, forms the collective. So I am rooted in identity, but I think I'm also very much rooted in community, and I really think that thinking about that relationship is more interesting for me than thinking about the singularity of identity, if that makes sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------FULL UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1/Jason: Right after the lecture, some notes. You know which we can use or not use. I just sort of kind of think about what we might talk about as a. Group today. And if you all want to use the chart, that's. Obviously an easy way to share some ideas, and it's just that you know there's no. Clear format. I thought it would be more conversational. Would be helpful, but certainly if we need to reference web resources. I think I enabled the sharing any of you can pull up, you know, websites or anything that you might want to if that's. Relevant to the, you know, discussion at the moment. I don't know. Cassils. Do you have any other thoughts on this? How you want to? Might want to see this unfold today.
Speaker 2/Cassils: No, I'm gonna be great to to get an intro from you all to to have, like, a face and a voice. So maybe. We could go around. Just you guys could. Say like your. Name your pronouns. Your interest. You know, in terms of what you're like. I know it's hard to summarise your art practise, but like maybe just what you're working on and and I guess, yeah. However you all can see me as being of service or helpful and just feel free to think of me as a resource. I know this is kind of around. You know. There's it's. It's one thing to study in school. It's certainly when I was in school, like I had an amazing education around history and theory. But the sort of real life fables of surviving as an artist was was something I had to figure out on my own. And so, you know, if there's sort of. Professional questions or? Yes, anything. Questions you have around press or just anything, feel free to to shoot.
Jason: OK, volunteers. Who wants to make first introduction?
Speaker 3/Gina: I will. My name is Gina. I'm a third year, so I'm graduating very, very soon, so I'll definitely have some questions for you. In terms of like professional practise later. But I'm right now just working on like a huge installation. It's like I'm doing that right. I have like a bunch of. Yarn. That I'm just unravelling. But. I don't really know what else to really put in. I guess I'm like technically in the ceramics department, but I don't know that that even matters anymore. From Florida now here. She. Her. Hers.
Cassils: Thanks Gina.
Speaker 5/Reed: I can go. My name is Reed. My pronouns are. He say anything, really. And I am a recent BFA graduate from the University of Tennessee. I'm in the process of applying to grad programmes right now. And a lot of my work focuses on my own relationship with my body and the ways that I use my art and my practise to kind of feel in control of it and kind of expressing frustration. With feelings of lack of control and kind of incorporating ideas of like body modification and plastic surgery and kind of concepts of societal concepts of beauty, and also more recently incorporating kind of tech. Practises and to kind of creating identity online and and using technology.
Cassils: Thank you. Should I just call on people? Emily, you want to go? Next or Mary, you're there. Go for Mary.
Speaker 6/Mary: I'll go. Hi, Cassils. Thank you so much for your talk yesterday. It was so great to see. Something's going on in here. I'm Mary. I use she, her, hers pronouns. I'm in my third year here. I have 3 weeks till my thesis show. Like Gina, there's some sounds coming in here. I'm right next to Eric. And yeah, I guess I make work revolving around cartooning and Catholicism and humour.
Speaker 9/Delaney: Sorry about that. Right, my my sound is very, very low on my laptop. OK, I'm Delaney. I have a big speaker in my studio. I I am sculpture, so I've done mostly. I've focused on metal and ceramic in the past, but I'm getting a lot into fibres. Right now and it's kind of, it's been really exciting, so.
Speaker 10/Darren: I'll I'll go next since I'm right here. I'm Darren. I'm a third year. Department. So we're coming up here on East in about a month and I make art about non binary clearness. I use those pesky, they them pronouns.
Speaker 7/ Danchi: I'm from China. This is my first tier here at UT. I'm going to making area that I've been working in all different kinds of mediums. And the subject of my work is kind of asking questions about the ethics of human reproduction. It was really great to hear a talk last night. Thank you very much.
Cassils: Thank you, Danchi.
Speaker 11/Ashton: I can jump in and go next. Hi, I’m Ashton, and I'm from the UK. I'm currently in my third year of a Bachelors of Fine Arts degree at Staffordshire University. Currently, due to COVID, we have no access to the studio, so I've adapted my practice to that. I'm currently creating short animations about moments in my life, I'm transgender so I've based it on experiences of that, like having to deal with periods in men's toilets where there's no sanitary bins. And so yeah, he/him pronouns.
Cassils: Thank you.
Jason: So OK, I was just going to say we're just going around and doing introductions for the. For the latecomers.
Speaker 6/Muriel: Hi. I'm. I'm Muriel. It was a great talk last night. Wonderful. Yes, eyes she her pronouns and my work is kind of thinking about food and digestion is and metaphor for cultural utopia. Specifically American and using a lot of. Fabrics and internal stuffing to kind of think about that. Like digestion and reformation of ideas.
Cassils: And what what medium are you working in?
Muriel: I'm I'm a print making student but I'm using paper specifically right now. Because I like how much it gets smashed up. And then reformed.
Darren: Oh, hello. Hi. I'm so sorry. I'm, like, trying to log on. I'm in the print studio with Mary and Danchi. My Internet slow. Anyways, I'm a second year painting and drawing graduate student here at UTK. She her pronouns? And my work is focusing on. So my I guess I'm exploring. My body throughout space and. Sort of. The liminal space between your thought and what comes out in a motion, or an extension of human form. So. That's where I'm at right now.
Cassils: And is that like you see? That painting your painter predominantly?
Speaker 10: Prominently painting, but I'm working into some performance. As well.
Cassils: Cool. Thank you.
Speaker 13/Tasha: I can go next. I'm Tasha. I'm a second year sculptor. She her pronouns? I also work with my body and recreating sculptures out of plaster, and I cover them in sort of skins and fabric. So a lot of things I'm thinking about sort of history of colonialism, patriarchy, capitalism. And kind of. Reinhabit Jing. These sort of traditional textile processes through digital fabrication and kind of re envisioning a new. Sort of future. Sam's thing?
Speaker 14/Hannah: My name is Hannah Segerman. I'm a first year. MFA student at UTK. In sculpture. She her pronouns. And I guess I'm like using personal experience and. Like photography? Like memories to work between, like the lines of like absence and presence. Of both, like people and objects in space. And yeah.
Cassils: Great. Thank you.
Speaker 8/Gwen: Yes, I can go. My name is Gwen. I'm from Vietnam. I'm a third year in painting and drawing, and I work with so many medium video installation. Yeah, most of my work using my cells and putting in the historical science and also dealing with the team of the post war, Vietnam and from my own experience living in between the two culture. And dealing with some duality. That's kinda like that.
Cassils: Very cool.
Speaker 15/Emily B: Cassils. I'll introduce myself. I am, I am Emily bivens. And I am a professor in the time based arts area. And I'm just here to was excited to hear everybody's summaries and and and what everybody is doing. But also just really appreciated your lecture and appreciate that we can have a conversation in a time where. Here we are so desperate to sort of.Get to be around. Each other and so this is such a active generosity and and thanks so much I. Use she, her, hers. Pronouns. So thank you for being here.
Cassils: Thank you. Great. I think there's a few folks who haven't spoke. I think Emily Rice and. Amelia. Amelia. Think I'm saying incorrectly. Sorry, is there anybody else who? Hasn't gone, we just jump.
Speaker 12/Amelia: Hi, my name is Amelia. I use she her pronouns. I'm a second year strong mix grad. At UTK and. My work is about landscape, ancient history. And monuments that we find or that I leave for others to find. Yeah, that's about it.
Speaker 4/Emily R: Hi, I'm Emily. Sorry I'm late. I couldn't. Figure out the pass code. I am a first year in painting and drawing. And my work is primarily installation right now and I'm working with my memory. Relationships. And the land.
Cassils: Cool. Is there anybody who hasn't gone?
Ashton: I've gone but I just realised I forgot to add why I'm a random extra here, currently I'm writing my final dissertation at uni about 3 artists, one of which is you, and my whole practice is about gender and sexuality, thought I’d just add that in there.
Cassils: Thanks. So I don't know Jason how you want to structure this but. Let's you know, maybe. Maybe there's some questions that you all have. You can just kind of dive in, or if there's a more sort of formatted way you'd like to run this, I'm, I'm open.
Jason: UM. I think I think we could just take turns sort of as we just did with introductions, Ice Breakers, what have you. I I I would prefer not to have, you know, last night was a bit awkward for me having, you know, like I didn't mind reading. Things from the chart and I understand why we did it that way, but I think. It would be great if people could just speak in their own voice and ask questions. And then you know. With the see kind of how the flow goes. Does that sound good? OK. Well, I guess that then then there's this awkward pause. Like, does someone have like, a big pressing question? Are you alright? Good, good.
Danchi: I have a Rather general question. Last night, Cassils, you kind of talked about identities. How and how sometimes you feel pigeonholed in the art world. Kind of always being curated in two shows about, you know, genders or you know, gender identities and these kind of things. And I I I'm I'm just starting out, but I'm definitely feeling to. Extent you know, because I'm Asian and I'm Chinese. Like I'm not even Asian American. I'm just Chinese. But the the unfortunate thing is my wife doesn't really have too much to do with being Chinese or my chineseness. And that's something that I've I've been having to negotiate. So I just wanted to hear. You talk more about that.
Cassils: OK. So do you have? Do you have like in terms of? A question in there because that was a kind of like a statement. But like what? What are you thinking about in terms of your? Are you feeling like? That you should have more of a relationship or that there's a pressure to sort of formulate to a particular identity in order to be kind of curated into something. Are you feeling a sort of pressure or is that something you actively want to resist or like what are you? What are you thinking in in that in relation?
Danchi: To that, I think my question. For you is, how do you? Reassert yourself as like like you said, you know you're hoping is not just about your gender identity. Your own practise is not just about, you know, you being non binary you you would like more conversations about the formal qualities of your work. And I feel like. That it's gonna be inevitable for me to be. Faced with, you know similar situations and I guess my question is what do you do and how can you regain a little bit of control in these situations?
Cassils: Sure. I think context is everything, right? So there's there's certain there's certain times where it feels really appropriate to embrace that, and other times where it feels frustrating, you know, and I think it's all about the context and who you're working with, you know. And and and also the moment in time in history and what it means, right? Like what it means to inhabit that identity. In that moment. So I I do think it's a bit. Of a fluid. Thing that we have to think about in terms of context, but for me it's always just about. Just making solid. Work, you know and and really asking myself. What it is that I want to make and and staying true to the sort of. Investigation. And inquiries that I have as an artist, that of course, are informed by my experience in the world, right, which is of course informed by, you know, my transness and all of that. But it's also informed by many other things, you know, being from a different country, having lived in in, in three or four countries outside the US. Just. Yeah, like coming from a different culture, really. You know, being a different generation and. You know, forming my identity before the Internet like there's so many things that inform us and I think it really is about. Taking stock of what's important to you and and just being really steadfast about that and and I think that that shift. So I think like what's important to you now, I mean I think there was a point in which it was very important for me. To focus on. On my identity because I wasn't seeing any sort of representation and I wanted to and then I started to feel like there was a sort of usurpation of trans identity for a neoliberalist agenda that I found suspect. And so then I changed my relationship to representation, and I tried to figure out sort of formal devices. That I could implement that would be a sort of creative and imaginative way of responding to this problem that I was seeing. So I think as long as I think as and I think. Another thing that's really. Really great, which I I think I said last night is is thinking about other artists whose work you value and. Whose ideologies you want to uplift and and working in coalition with other artists like creating the culture and creating the sort of network and and context around your work. You can actually do that yourself. You don't need to wait for someone to come in and and. And I really think that that's very valuable, especially as. You know, artists like more and more. I don't know. I feel like the the crunch on and the grind have just increased rent and jobs and you know all of this. It means in a way it's a it's, it's, it's scary, but it's also like, well, you know what, this is really up for us to make our own terms now and there's a. Sort of space. For inventiveness in there, which is, I think, really exciting, so I'd say. Which I think it's like a very personal question and everybody has a different answer and I think it's just about discovering what feels right to you and then. Just kind of sticking with it. Thank you. Thank you.
Reed: I have a question that kind of bounces off of what Don she asked you and you actually started going into it, basically talking about collaboration. So I'm really curious how you began connecting with other organisations and artists and working on collaboration. When did that? Start for you and how do you engage with artists that, like you said, people you want to hold up and work with and admire.
Cassils: Yeah, I mean. I've been working collaboratively for a very long time. I say, like I did my entire graduate degree collaboratively. I, you know, when I went, I went to Cal Arts. I guess it was in 2000. So like way back and and I went to. Graduate School because I was really. Excited about this idea of? Finding a collective of like minded individuals who would all like be intensely interested in art and that we could just really dive in. But what I ended up finding was actually like a lot of people that were either going deeply into debt or people that were extremely wealthy, you know, were living off trust funds. And there was a real like sort of class. Divide it was also when I was there on a scholarship, so I was lucky to be neither of those situations. But it was like I I also found that there was a sort of. Authorship and a sort of protectiveness about creative practise. There would be some students that would like lock their studios and only bring gallerists in. It was like this hyper professionalisation at this moment that in my experience like what I wanted was like just this radical experimentation. And there was also like just no. No, like, let alone trends like no queerness at all happening around me. And so I ended up forming a collective with two other people in in my master's programme, and it was it was kind of an absurd collective. It was called the toxic *******. And we were a biker gang and. We had no bikes. But we would, you know. Blue wigs inside helmets and show up at art events like you know like and in full biker regalia. And it was like very it was just like this radical experimental process based. Performance troupe and we actually we ended up working together for something like 8 years and it was like a a very like, monogamous collaboration. We didn't really make work outside of the collective for many years and so that that really taught me about collaborating. And it was like. The kind of collaboration where. We would argue and argue and argue until we agreed, and that was part of the process. It was called productive disagreement and and it was really like this amazing way to work on kind of relationships first and foremost. And and I think like once you know many years into our practise, once we start to have a shorthand. And agree on things. The work got less. Interesting, you know. And so I think that there is that friction point and collaboration is incredibly generative. And so that was like a full-fledged I, I acquiesce. I let go of my desire and we will meet in some murky pond that none of us would have ever come up with on our own. That's like one style. And then other styles of collaboration that I've embraced since because I felt like I kind of needed to find my. Own voice after that. And so I worked singularly for quite a long time. But then I do love collaborating, and even in my solo works I'm always collaborating. So I'm working with. DPS, like directors of photography for film, so I'm working with sound designers. I'm working with graphic designers or I'm working with people who in a sense I am, you know, bringing on to help instigate a work that that is coming kind of from me. But it is very much a back and forth and it's more of, I guess, a higher hierarchical structure that we resemble more of like a film world. Like everybody has their expertise and their roles and we're working kind of in concert to realise a singular thing. Versus agreeing on every single part of it. So that's a bit of a different sort of method and and that's also been really fantastic. And then I'd say this last work or I guess a few of the last works like I'd say both monument push and the solutions piece I showed last night as well as in plain sight. Was more about coming up with a concept and then inviting artists to respond to a prompt. So there was a sort of formal envelope in which you were invited to explore, but within that envelope. There was. Pretty much a a space for your own practise to respond. So it allowed for a a sort of unison, but also for tremendous like individuality and differences to be extrapolated from that process. And so those are kind of a few different ways in which I have collaborated in terms of like. In plain sight, which I feel is maybe what you're asking more about in terms of working with organisers and that kind of thing, that is a very different set of practises. Organiser. Have you know incredibly different stakes in the game? They're often working with very little resources to ask them to. You know, I have this great art idea, you know, like they're that's taking them away from often sort of very urgent work that they're doing often with little resources and little. Finances. And so you know, that was one of the reasons why we were really Cognizant to. To think rather than saying like, here's this great art idea, don't you want to be a part of it to really articulate for for that project? Like what what are the needs of the movement and how can our artwork serve you, which is a very different kind of relationship, right. So it's not like social practise per say. You know, in that traditional sense where you're going into community with your arts to solve something or to talk about it metaphorically, symbolically, you're literally asking. It's a sort of artist as a service provider thinking about, for me, the rhetoric and the sort of white noise and thinking, how can we as arts. This. Serve this this cause and also cut through all of these sort of this rhetoric, this static, this, this proliferation of of noise on the Internet. In COVID like thinking about the sky, thinking about analogue morality, and just really trying to find a creative solution that again isn't about but is more about elevating. And I think that that's a very different way to go about doing things too is to think of yourself in service. To as opposed to making about, that makes sense.
Gwen: Thank you for sharing. That's very interesting. And yeah, I mean about the idea of collective, but so that's my big thing. More about the question about collective ownership. I think I I think more about copyrights when it comes to you have somebody to work with but so. For example, if I work with pilots of flowing me around the sky and I I can feel something, I can obviously credit him for a part of like participants in the project. But how about if I work with like a photograph? You know, like she needs Sherman. So I think sometimes they also have somebody taking a picture of her from far away. So. So if a photographer. Will be the one who. I guess in my specific situation I have like art direction. I set up the space and I plan for all of the concept, but I need somebody have to like. Like to do that job so. And so it's something I'm still like unclear about how to, because like literally, that person might not like work on that same topic, but it's just in this specific case, I need a photographer. And but how it will end up in the future if the words. Become something else.
Cassils: Now that's a very good question and. It's certainly something that. Someone like myself, a performance artist. Totally had to come up against and. You know. My background is as a painter. I'm not like coming at it from a theatrical background, and so when I'm thinking of creating a live work, I think about light, composition, sound all of the elements are are very much composed, almost as if you're watching a moving tableau. So you know if you photograph it. You're going to get a beautiful work because I have. I mean, not to say that photographer doesn't have the skill set in in how they frame. Of course they do. But for example, something like becoming an image was very much designed to to problematize that very issue. Like any image that was. Taken in mind, there's there's absolutely the sort of agents he's prescribed. The photographer is removed because his site is removed. So on a conceptual level, I was interested in that. But in terms of how you deal with that, as you correctly identified, at least in the US and certainly in the UK copyright photography. If the copyright lies in whoever presses the button, whether or not they're they're the author or of the concept or the content, it doesn't matter if they took the picture they own. Hockey, right? So I actually worked with the lawyer to to form a copyright agreement where I can either share or outrightly purchase the copyright of of that photographer. And I've done different things in certain instances when it's truly my concept and they are simply just. Coming in and pressing a button. I will buy them out if it's something where, you know, it's something that we've collaborated on together like they've really. We've thought a lot about different lighting schematics and we've talked about cropping and they do some post and it's it's really utilising their authorship and their skill set. Then I'll do a shared copyright agreement. And and for me, you know in terms of collaboration and in terms of thinking about how? Move forward. It is a really great thing to have a contract and to have these discussions up front and that's not because you don't trust the individual, but a contract is there for clarity. It's there so everybody understands and it's fair and everybody feels that it's fair and that it's like, you know, done up front. So even with in plain sight, for example, we had, we had to hire, so we had 8080 artists and then we had to have 8:00. Photographers and so which was bananas and then. So basically we had to like, so we had to like, get the copyright for all of the photographers and the artists and come up with an agreement that felt equitable and fair, you know? And so getting all of those contracts and negotiating that was like its own insanity, you know? But it was important. For us to do. Such that everybody was clear, you know, and the way that we sort of negotiated, such is such that like we didn't have money. So we were like, you know, we can pay you $200 to take a photo. I know it's not a lot of money. However, if down the line we sell the work and we're able to replace what we've gone and like what we've like taken on in terms of project. Costs, we will like you know, share the work three ways. You know, between in plain sight, the artist and the photographer, you know. And so we were able to kind of decide something that felt very fair, you know, that was also like, but we can't do that until we pay ourselves back for all the debt we've accrued to get this. Project happening, you know, so there's like again it's really depending on what you're doing and what you're taking on and there's not really one way, but there's certainly are ways and I'm happy to send you guys that shared copyright agreement if you want. It's like I can send you a word doc, and you can plug in, you know your own. Terms and you can adjust it as as feels fit and I think like. Yeah, it's an important it's an important part of. Of like Professionalising and just having clarity. Between collaborators Hassas,
Emily B: can I ask You to talk about one other element. I really appreciate it when you were talking last night when you were discussing the role of the audience and that as a witness, audiences are implicated in the sort of piece I wanted to hear you talk about. How you let the audience know that they are being documented and how they, you know, I assume you have, you know, posted agreements to for them to understand that this, that they are now part of the piece rather than just. Audiences that are not implicated.
Cassils: Right. Yeah, I mean like. Prior to work there. Is always, especially for something like becoming an image you know there's like a sort of listing of how things go down, including warnings around epilepsy and you know. The fact that you would. Be subject to flash photography. That there are certain rules to that work. You can't go. You can't go in and out. Like once you're in, you're in. You know you can't go to the bathroom because you can't find your way out of that room. So there's certain commitments, you know, you have to stand unless you're elderly or disabled, in which case you can sit. But you're asked to stand. So and. And you're also told that your image. Taken and that's done in a couple of ways. It's sent to you in an e-mail prior to your attendance. It's on your ticket and there are also. You know, postings around the exhibition space and doors. You're going and saying like, much like you have when you're shooting film, you know your likeness will be captured for this particular performance. And so it's not like something that we have an image release per SE, but it's it's more just like when they have a more general filming that kind of verbiage that's. And it's important to like to do all that stuff, because again, it's about transparency and clarity, you know, so people understand kind of what they're getting into and you're you're allowing them to to decide, you know. Yes, consent actually.
Delaney: We have a question about both, sorry.
Gina: No, go ahead, Delaney. I'll go after you. You're good.
Delaney: There's too many faces to look at. I couldn't tell anyone. Someone's talking. I have a question about. Uh. So if you, you know, let's say if if your intention isn't to teach or something, I guess the most daunting part is like immediately after grad school finding, you know, making a living as soon as you get out, you know, that's I think that's the biggest transition and but most daunting part unless you do plan to teach. But do you have any thoughts on? Is that or what you did or anything?
Cassils: Where did you go? Did you go directly from undergrad to Graduate School? Or did you take some? Time off in between.
Delaney: I had two years off between. It was good. I spent it with my wife in Australia and and it was fun. I did get to live through some wildfires too, but you know, but. Ohh you. I guess you're talking about getting a job right out there, aren't you?
Cassils: Just I just. You know my I remember. When I graduated from grad school and my friends who had never taken any time off between Graduate School and undergrad had a harder time because they hadn't kind of lived outside. That sort of world that we live in when we're in school, which is a sort of. Like we went over there from here to here and. You have to do these things. You know. It's like very structured. And I think the hardest thing about graduating is, is that lack of structure. And then also that we put so much care and effort into art. And just to be totally honest with you all, like nobody. Gives a ****. Like when you get out of. School. If you make art or not, I mean. I care and like you all. Fair and actually that's something really relevant, like your community of students and your colleagues in in your school are really important resource, you know, because you have been through this process together and you've been through this sort of educational process and you can provide feedback and you've you've you've kind of crossed through this fire together and so. Honestly, like my my my friends my. Community of artists were so very important to me to continue having dialogues, to share spaces to, you know, maybe not have money to hire folks to help on projects, but that we could kind of crew for each other or share our skill sets in ways when we didn't have like funding. Otherwise, you know. Like I think the generosity of spirit of your colleagues is really important. To to keep a network going after you you graduate, I'd say like, you know, teaching is one way to go and it's totally cool because I didn't have immigration status at the time, I wasn't able to take any old job I had. I had a visa that was like you have a one year unrestricted visa, but then. You know from my citizenship I needed to have like 1 of 10 jobs, you know? And I had to have that job sponsor me and say that I was better at it than any other American. So I had like, very specific sort of. From. Yeah, I had a hard. I had a bunch of things I had to overcome, which was quite challenging. But I would say like. The advice that I would give is again, it really depends. I think teaching can be a wonderful way to go, but I would say you know, for me as a young person, I wanted to have as much flexibility in my schedule. So I had time and energy to make my art. And so I tried to get into something that would pay me a good amount of money per hour and. Allow me flexibility, you know. So for me, personal training was excellent, right? Because I could start working at 5:00 in the morning and be done at like noon. And you know, charge a decently hourly wage and then, like, have all that taken care of and then have the afternoon for my creative time, you know, or I could stack all my clients. I could do a **** tonne of client clients over three days and then have four days for creative practise. You know, it took me a long time to figure that out for a long time, I worked several jobs. And I worked constantly, you know? And I didn't have time for creative practise and actually like, just so you know, if you don't have time for creative practise out of grad school, that's normal. You know, it's like you gotta figure out how to be and live in the world. And the world is it's not easy, right? And so just like, I'm not saying this to scare you, but I'm saying it to. To to, like, lower the pressure on yourself such that if you get out there and you're just trying to figure out how to make ends meet for even a couple of years, that's normal. The the goal is then to try to start to carve out a space that works for you. And so for me. That was like personal training, right? And like working in a. Places right? And and that's served me well. But for other folks could be like graphic design coding like whatever is going to pay you a decent hourly that gives you flexibility I would suggest is like you know and the other thing I would suggest is to keep your overhead low. So I lived in a very cheap apartment like super cheap and I was really lucky to have it. But I also sought it out, you know, and I just like. Yeah, I didn't like. I was careful with my finances. Like, I made sure that I didn't go deeply into debt, you know, like I. I I made it such that I like lived on. I didn't live on a lot and I kept my overhead low and that gave me freedom. That gave me freedom to be an artist and then, like quite frankly, I'm lucky to be Canadian because I have access to grants in Canada. So that's something that maybe you all don't have, which is unfortunate, but. There are grants that you can start applying for and you know. Grants are a pain in the asss to write, and it's a skill set in its own right, however. Once, even if you don't get the grant, it's worth it to write it because you're getting your work in front of a bunch of adjudicators, right? People who have their own practises, who might be curating, who might be collecting, who might know folks, and so every time you enter a competition or you put your work before a jury. You're exposing and expanding. Your network, even if you don't get the grant. And I will say too like for me. I call it like artistic Darwinism. Survival of those who are most stubborn. Right, like I have so many friends that are no longer artists. And it's not because they weren't talented, it's because they just didn't like. They were just tired. You know, it's hard to be an artist. So just to say that as well and again not to discourage, but again, to build the expectation that like. You just have. To really want to make work and care and it has to kind of be. A burn in you, that's. Like. You know, it's just something you gotta like. You if you get rejected, you have to get back up and you know, and rejection is a big part of it and you have to have, like the self esteem to know that even and trust me like I get rejected all the time still, you know. And that's like, I'm like, I'll lie in bed. Like, what is the point of my life? You know what I mean? And that happens right. You have those ****** days. But then for me, because I am an artist, and because if you know quite frankly, there's nothing else that I could do and I don't really fancy being like a professional full time. You know gym person, I guess that's what I could do, but that's not really my. That wouldn't make me fulfilled. And so I feel like I have no choice even in those moments of rejection, to kind of just get back up and get back at it again, you know, so I'd say like, OK, just to summarise, I would say flexible work hours that that like, pay as much as you can. Yet you know, and if you don't have that skill set yet, maybe there's some like training you can. Take that will. Get you there? You know, I'd say and also like in that the other good thing is like you save your creative energy. For your art, when you're. Doing something that's related to art, right? So that's kind of cool. Low overhead and apply to ****, you know, apply to a lot of things and eventually you will get things you know, it just takes a while at first at first, and then once you get one or two things people are like, oh, look, they did that grant and they made something really interesting with it. And they were like, responsible and they like, came in on budget. They know what they're. Doing. Oh, let's let's give them another try, you. Know it's like you. You start to prove yourself, you know. So. And colleagues, right? And your network, your community, keep your to community tight.
Gina: That was like a perfect like my question kind of relates to Delaney's question. And and it's again, just kind of like asking for a little bit of advice in a way as someone who is about to graduate, who has been, you know, and I feel, Jason, who has been very much in the forefront of a lot of these conversations. On my committee. Being encouraged to apply to all of these teaching jobs. And then realising that, yes, one I I love teaching and I love being a teacher and. It's. It's great, but I'm realising how much of A struggle I have. Teaching in the world of academia and. You know, to the point where I, you know, I I've I have. Decided I'm not applying. To anymore teaching jobs because I just, I don't agree with it right now and I can't do it right now like I just don't feel like doing it. And really just, you know, I have decided I'm going to just stay in town. I'm going to get that bartending job, and I'm going to do my thing. But I guess, like, do you have advice on how to move forward as someone who really does want to teach? Who really enjoys teaching but is also dealing with this? Internal struggle with working with academia. You know, I'm writing this thesis paper and. You know something that comes up a lot is well, you're going to have to do this to write a 10. Year paper and you're going to have to do. This to do this and this and this and it's like well. I don't know like 1. I don't agree with 10 year papers. I don't agree with certain things and so all of that just to ask any advice. On how to move forward. As an artist and a teacher without wanting to do that in the world of academia, or at least the way that academia is existing right now. Well, for the most part.
Cassils: Can you tell me a little more, Gina? About the specific, when you say problems. With academia. Are you talking about the fact that art school education costs so much money and faculty are paid nothing and students don't? Remembers that? Or are you talking about, you know, what are you talking like? Were you talking about a sort of elitist? Structure like what is? It that you find, can you name what? You think is. Troubling about Academy?
Gina: Yeah. So well, one yes, it costs so much money to go to school, which is insane, but I think the thing that's in the forefront of my mind right now. Really is. All of this pressure to like be able to. Write these time year papers and people basically proving their ability to teach without actually proving it through the teaching, and they're proving it through this piece of writing that. Seems to me. Doesn't really have much to do with the actual. Act of teaching. So that's like the number one thing that I'm struggling with at this very moment, just as I'm, you know, was applying to jobs and doing this and that. But there's so many problems I think with it that we could talk all day about it. But you know, these kinds of documents that you have put together, which I understand the importance of putting you together and writing. Friends and doing this not but I guess proving your ability to teach through a piece of writing over like just a teaching I guess. Seems like it's a really big. Thing and it's just. I'm struggling with that.
Cassils: Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I think, you know, look, you're talking to someone who's, like, wildly dyslexic and like, like I said, there's a reason I'm an artist. You know, there's not many. Other options for me? There's not very good at like. I actually, here's the deal is you get better. At writing right, like I. Am someone who is just alexic? I am someone who struggled in school. Endemically. And yet I've now become a very good grant writer. You know, just. And so I think, like, yes, you know. There are these structures that are problematic, however. Are there ways? That you can kind of make them on your own terms. Can you write something that feels authentic to you? Because like when you're applying for a job, you don't have to write a tenure. You know you have to write a teaching statement and you have to write a statement on diversity and on what it is that you believe in, in terms of inclusion and diversity. And you have to talk about what's important to you and why you want to teach like, that's not elitist. You know, that can be done in a way that's very genuine. You know, you can teach at community colleges. You can teach you can. You can even like, you know, forget about college. You could teach like. Like students, you know you can teach young people, you can teach, like workshops. You know, there's like one of my favourite artists is an artist named Jackie Sumal. And I just kind of discovered her work about a year and a half ago, and her project is she's not. She's like, you know, a prison abolitionist. And she makes this work called Solitary Gardens. And she has made like a 20 year practise of making pen pal relationships with folks in solitary. Confinement and often asking them, you know, these people who've been locked in a tiny cell, like, what would, what would the if they were out if they could grow a garden, what garden would they grow, you know? And she just, she has this dialogue back and forth and then she's made these beautiful gardens that are the exact same shape as a solitary confinement. Cell and they literally have the blueprint of where the sink, the toilet and the bed would be. But everywhere else in that garden is is authored by that. And who was incarcerated? And yet she's literally, like, growing their freedom on the outside and in order to do this, she works with a group. She lives in New Orleans and. She works with. A group of like like low income like teens essentially and teaches them gardening teaches them how to build, how to. Like grow food. Off the land and. And has this like incredibly like generative way of of talking about systemic racism, talking about the prison system, but also talking about. Freedom and possibility in this really, like poetic way that is very much about teaching. It's about teaching those young people that there's another option for them. It's about teaching them about a system that criminalises them. It's what teaching them that those who are incarcerated are actually not evil. You know, there's so many beautiful ways of creating relationships. Through this action of teaching people the garden that is about abolition, that is about systemic racism, that is about social justice. And like I think as artists, part of the quandary is, yes, there are these systems that we exist in and. Rather than reject, it's like how do you insert yourself into it using your creative artist brain to make it what you want it to be? Or on your own terms? It's it's like you can say I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to teach. I'm not going to do that. Or you can say I want to teach this. Is who I want to teach. This is what I believe is important. Teaching. And how do I? How can I do that? You know, based on my experiences based on, you know, my financial constraints, like everything else, like you think about the parameters. Just like if you're going to make, you know, a painting or a sculpture. This is my medium. You know, I'm I'm constrained by like chicken wire, you know, newspaper and water and flour. OK, what am I going to make? You know, like and I'm gonna make it work by the environment. Whatever. Like, think of this instead of it as, like, an oppressive structure. Think of it with curiosity. Like how can I how can I invent something here? You know? And I would also advise that you look to the people who you think have done that successfully. Like if you see other artists or you see other. Just human beings in the world you admire, you know, other than you look at their careers. Like what did they do, you know, like study, study their CV, study the choices they made, read their biographies and and like again it it won't. It might not mirror yours that it might give you some ideas about what you could think of that would make sense for you. You know, so that's kind of. I don't know.
Gina: Thank you. And I appreciate it.
Cassils: I don't know if that's helpful. I hope so. I don't mean to be prescriptive. I'm just like telling you, you know, I'm. Just telling you what I think you know.
Gina: Yeah. No, that's really, I mean it was, it was great. It was insightful. You know, it's. You end up just talking to the same people over and over again, that it's like you just kind of like needs it. I don't. Know talk to. Other people, so it's nice having you to. Give your insight.
Cassils: Sure. Have a pleasure.
Jason: I just typed the question in the chat that kind of follows up Gino's question. Do you have strategies for scholarly engagement with curators, critics, and writers who might support your work as an? Artist. By framing critical dialogue that be parallel to. Or Alternative to academia?
Cassils: I think you know, I think. It's imperative to know who's writing and teaching in a way again, that you appreciate you know, so I there are certain people's works who I follow, whose works I admire both their pedagogical styles or, you know, their their written works and. You know, I will like form relationships with them, you know, and I will. You know I will, I will engage them and then I. I have even. Like reached out. To people whose work I like and have just asked them like, hey, I. Love your work? I'm going to have an exhibition. It happens to be in the same city as yours. I would love to invite you to come check out the work. You know I'm gonna. You know, I'd like to do a talk and then. I'd like to have. You maybe would you be a dialogue with me over the talk? You know, you can invite people, but also think about it. Like giving them a platform to shine as well. So instead of just like asking from them, it's like how can you, you know, leverage, you know, cause you know, academics and critics and writers. They need creatives too, right? So it's not like if you come of it from like a power paradigm. You're like ohh please. Think about me or write about me. Like like to me, that doesn't really work. But if you think like actually this person is thinking about this issue in a way that. Really respect and I feel like the work I'm making in many ways would be complementary or interesting for their thought process and like, is there a symbiosis there, you know? And I think it's like. Yeah, just like engaging with those people and I think. That's a great. Thing about being in school is like sometimes. It'll be like maybe, I don't know. It's like it's, I think, like from myself. You know, it was like I remember when I was at Cal Arts, there was. Amelia Jones came to Cal Arts, and I was actually visiting artist coordinator right, with with the toxic *******. We like got this gig where we were like, OK, we're going to bite all the artists this year. And then I was like, I want to invite Amelia Jones. She's an amazing feminist theorist who's been writing about 70s. Performance in Southern California since the 1970s, and she's never been invited to Cal Arts like the place where woman house, you know, like, let's invite. Amelia. And like it was like she she liked our work, we we loved her. We read her books and we like forged a relationship. And we're still in touch. We're still friends. You know, and it does. That's so to say like to. Sound, I'm not trying to say that. It's not such a strategic thing. It has to be organic, like there has to be a genuine appreciation of each other. But I think it's back to that idea. Of going where? It's warm like. Seeking out, you know, obviously if I'm going to. I don't know, become obsessed with some, like German theorist who is like 89 or something that might be a little little different, but if it's someone who's kind of within your community that you can reach out to those, it's, you know, why not? Why not try to reach out? You know, I will very often take. You know, I'll get like a DM on Instagram from an undergrad, you know, asking for a studio visit. And like, if I'm not too busy, I'll do it, you know, because like, we need, we need to do that for each other. And so, like, I really do think that, especially if it's, if you're making something that's personal, that has, like, something at stake to you. And it's it's really genuine. You know, and you're reaching out to someone who also has that sort of stake in their work. Then, like you know, you're meeting on that that paradigm of values, right? Like I see the value. In each other's practise. And I think that people respond to that. I'd say like, don't be afraid To I mean you. Don't wanna like like. Cold call people, but I mean. That you can't. You know and. That's OK it. Can't it can't hurt to. Try like I'm a big proponent of like people are. You know, I really believe that you don't get opportunities and or some people that opportunity. Many of my opportunities I have made in a certain way, OK, of course I am still coming from a position of privilege. You know, I'm white, I've educated, you know, I have. I have certain aspects of privilege, right? However, I have still been very proactive in making my opportunities happen and I really think that that's a huge part of it. And it's like as I was saying earlier to Gina, it's like that using that sort of creative problem solving that you have in your artist brain to figure out how am I going to be in dialogue with this person? How am I going? To frame my show in a way that. How I like. I really love the way this art historian discussed. You know this particular like rule of like what it is to be a a maker, that kind of. Dovetails into Chinese identity, but doesn't focus there. It's really complicated. They have a nuanced way. Can I get them to come see my show and talk to me about my work? You know, so. That's what I'd say for that.
Jason: Thanks good advice. And then you'll have other questions. We have about 30 minutes left so. Emily, do you have other? Other questions? Emily bivens.
Emily B: Oh, I thought you were asking Emily Rice.
Jason: Alright, Emily rice. Do you have some Questions? I know you do.
Emily R: I have a list, but I want other people to Ask theirs first
Emily B: It was just really helpful what you've said. So far about engaging in in a. Sort of ambitious. But genuine manner feels really exciting and and and. Emily Rice, what's your list?
Emily R: Right. One of them, one of my questions is actually about performance and the act of performing. So what mental strategies do you use to follow through with such conviction? So for example, some of the pieces we saw last night with the ice on your body and even just enduring that, I probably would have been like, Nah, I'm done. So how would you, how do you follow through with the piece like that? Is there something you tell yourself, do you plan? Endurance strategies. I'm just curious.
Cassils: Yeah, absolutely. I think you know there is. Every I think I said earlier, like let's I think of the body as like both an instrument and the image, right? And so it's like, well, if you're thinking of the body as an instrument, then how are you going to? Or. Make it through this orchestral suite, so to speak, you know. For something like Tiresias, it was a concept and then to, you know, perform. It is something altogether, right? Just like. And to be perfectly honest, half the time, I'm halfway through an artwork and I'm like, damn, it was like thinking like, like, because there's always a concept. And then there's actualizing the concept. But for something like Tyrese. This I have a friend who's a doctor and you know she's like a paediatrician or whatever, but she still went to medical school, you know? And this was like before. My wife is also a nurse, so I'm lucky to have literally like my I can. Ask my wife medical questions and whatnot, but this was before she was. A nurse and. I you know, so I asked my doctor friend, like, how long before hypothermia sets?In you know. Like what? What, what? Should I be looking for in terms? Of frostbite you. Know when I was like educated to look for, you know, like different phases of frostbite and will turn like red and then it will turn it will like. With circulation and turn black so you don't want that to happen, you know. And and then I like just rather than, you know, to make the ice sculpture as a whole process that takes a lot of time and you need the talent of the ice sculptor. So I there's an ice house not far from my house. And I I just would, like pick up a brick of ice and practise and and build up, you know, on the understanding sort of corporeal. And it's like the embodied practise of, like, what it is to experience what that would feel like, and also to understand, you know. What was too much and was too little, and this is something that's like where my athletic training comes in really handy because like when you're training, you don't want to. It's not just about like push, push, push because if you push like that, especially if you're over. Like 30 years old. You will injure yourself, and so it's it's learning to understand. The sort of range you know and understanding, like just because something is difficult doesn't mean it's bad for you, but it can become bad for you if you're not paying attention, right? So like although my work requires a lot. Of quote unquote risk and people think that I do these like kind of really crazy things like light myself on fire and put myself on front of ice. And I do do that. But I really carefully strategize how to get there such that because I want to be doing this work for a very long time. I'm not. I don't have a death wish on myself. So with Tiresias like. You know, the thing about live performance is you can plan and you know often if. You perform in tour. Work. You have, like a technical writer, where you're like, OK, so for Tiresias. I figured out that I could stay on the ice, for example, for about 15 to 20 minutes before frostbite setting in. And so every 15 to 20 minutes, I would go. I would leave the pedestal. I would leave the sculpture. And I would have a sort of adjacent green room or closet, depending on the venue. And I have like a hair dryer in there and I would warm up my skin and I would have an electric kettle and I would drink hot water and I would like, make sure to maintain my. Body temperature every 15 to 20 minutes to maintain the ability to keep going back on. Now when I last did that piece in Tasmania. I went there and like once he was like our our summer. It was like June, right? But I'm but I mean, I kind of knew this but not quite. But like June and Tasmania is like winter time and it's like kind of like Canadian winter. It's not like when we think of Australia we think like ohh winter is going to be like LA winter, no, it was cold it. Was like below 0. And they decided to put me in a warehouse. In a space with no heat, no heat at all, and I was and they had, they had like commissioned Tiresias. And I was. Like I had. Not put on my technical rider. This needs to be performed in a space that's like 68° or higher, you know, because I assumed that was just common sense, you know? So like, you know, I think understanding the constraints. Around like what is? Beef is really important because there's in live performance. There's always things you can't control and so it's kind of being able to think through a number of those and then be flexible within those constraints. You know what I mean? Like, when I did inextinguishable fire, which I didn't talk about last night. But it's a work where. Perform a full body. Burn. You know, we had we had a professional stunt team. So we had all of that, but we also had a medic present. We also had the shortest we had like the shortest path to the nearest hospital burn unit lined up. We like thought through all the worst case scenarios. And then like. We're pretty confident that those wouldn't happen because we had taken all the steps, you know, and these are people that light themselves on fire. For living. And so they're actually very Cognizant and aware of how to do it properly. So I think. Getting good information, learning the skill, understanding your limits, and being able to have a sort of like presence of and then the active performing is about for me it's about being hyper aware like of that moment. And knowing exactly where you are, it's about like I I hesitate to use the word channelling, but it kind of is like for me it kind of feels like that. It's like being extremely present. So that you can like you've done all that work. It's like anything that you've done, like if you play piano or if you're. Like, you know, really good sculpture or something that you've done over and over again that you can do in your sleep. Then you're allowed to like kind of embody it in the moment. So I think it's doing that prep work such that when you're in the moment of the liveness, you can respond as such almost instinctually, because you've done all that preparatory work. And we do have another question on your list.
Amelia: I have a question. OK, you mentioned yesterday living in LA and Hollywood and the aspects of your work that revolve around the audience. And performance is that just something that happened because of your location or is that just the nature of your work and? How much do you think that your? City or location? Influences what you do every day.
Cassils: I would say a lot, right. I would say like anything we do every day influencing us, right? So like, you know, if you guys. You know, do whatever you do after you graduate, you're going to start to think about it like art. You know, it's like when you're an artist, everything you do starts to go through the art tunnel, you know, like. The the the machine. And and you know, performance is actually probably not the first thing you think of when you come when you think of Los Angeles. I think you think of more. Like the industrialised production of imagery you think about film and television, and certainly. And of course, like it's happening all around you, I mean, a lot of artists graduate from art school here and then instead of getting teaching jobs, they, like, work on set, you know, because there's so many jobs in the film industry, in the television industry that kind of require that sort of creative brain, which is quite cool, actually. So I'd say that. That for sure influence. You know, not just me, but also my peers, because especially early on a lot of my peers were going and working in the film industry and doing this kind of collaborative work for pay that they would bring that sort of structure of higher hierarchy to their own practises or those skill sets to each other's practises, you know, which was. Pretty great. So just on a practical level. We and we, we have skill sets that we develop because of our jobs that we. Then can fold in. For our practise. So that's one thing. And then secondarily I'd say. That for me, living in LA, which is very much a place where stories are are are like it's it's almost like stories are more readily available than real life, you know, fantasies and the creation of fantasies are almost more tangible than than than than actually. These in many ways, everybody's in the business of making fantasy and you know, an example of that would be like, as I told you, when I graduated from grad school, you know, I got a job working as a personal trainer in a corporate gym called Crunch Fitness, right. Which was the kind of thing in the early 2000s in West Hollywood. So there I was like. Fresh out of grad school, head full of Marxism like, you know, working in this box gym and I watched the Battle of Fallujah happen simultaneously on like 25 monitors. Well, like blonde actresses check their pulse rate for optimal fat burn. So I'm watching this war occur in this really weird removed environment and then shortly thereafter I had actors that would come to me as a trainer saying, hey, look, I just got cast as a soldier to play a soldier in this TV show. Can you make me look like a soldier? In six weeks. So it became my job to construct the aesthetic of militarism on a body that had nothing to do with war so they could tell the story of war that we were witnessing via a television, you know, and so that relationship. To how the real world was constantly being mediated and constructed for fantasy and digestible form certainly has influenced me, and it kind of took me into a wormhole which, like led me to want to really understand how images of violence are constructed. And so I actually went to stunt. School as part of my research. I'd say like in I think it was in 2007. I did this like 8 week intensive like 6 day a week and like and it was for people who wanted to become stunt people, which I did not want to become a stunt person, but I didn't. Want to understand? Like the the sort of magic behind the image so that I could understand it more from the artistic. Standpoint. And so yes, like wanting to understand how images are constructed to emotionally solicit reaction, I think came from living in LA. Sorry, that's like very. For both, but that's my answer.
Tasha: I have a question kind of changing. Sorry Aaron talk a little bit. You have a few pieces that reference sort of classical Greek myths, and I know you talked in your thing a bit about how you reference art history. Can you talk about how you navigate that? Think about the classics and and sort of apply that forward? In your work.
Cassils: Totally good question. I think I've only worked with the one Greek commitment but but, but definitely you're right. I mean, I think. There is that I I think always when we're thinking of representational sculpture, you know the body we can't get outside the sort of. Sort of history of like Greek and Roman, right? It's like kind of impregnated in the Western. And I think really like my interest in in calling that into into being was this idea of like idealised bodies. As a sort of cultural construct and kind of referencing that historically as a way to speak to how those narratives are. Although they might look a little bit different, are very much alive and well in our own societies and that there are like very strict conventions and ideations around. And so. So I'd say like. One of the. Reasons to call upon that, that sort of. Canon of like Greek sculpture is because of the sort of early concepts of idealisation of bodies, but also like the sort of homework monics of those of those images and and specifically kind of. I often find it helpful. To make something in reference to because it gives me something to push off of, you know, so it's like rather than just swimming in space, there's a wall you can springboard off of and. And so. But I do have friends that. Say **** our. History, you know, like I. Have a lot. I was like hanging out with a few, a few, like young artists, and they were just saying, like, you know especially. Like. Artists of colour who are being fed this sort of very particular kind of cannon that is like very traditionally white and Western and American. If you're in America and Canadian if you're in Canada or you know there's is like a very particular diet of what is deemed like proper art. And of course, that's extremely limited, and so I've heard people say, you know, screw that like I'm not interested in that. But I actually think personally from myself, someone who is formed by those particular histories, who is kind of from that culture, that there is a possibility there. Because I don't think it's about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You know, I think that there. Is. Something there's always something to glean. And then there's other things to rethink. And so again, just like that wall, to push off of, you know, there are certain things that are barriers that are limitations. But there are other places that are porous and opening. And and I often. Think about, you know, especially, you know, in the last four years when we we've been going through these, like really politically strident times. You know, got me wondering like, well, what did you know what artists in 1968 doing or what were artists doing like in the first year of the Second World War were you know, how you know, how did? How did artists survive the AIDS crisis? You know, like thinking about, you know, my ancestry and legacy, like who? What were artists doing? Culturally, in those moments, to respond to those situations and is there something in there for me to think about and not only to think about but like? Being someone who was like. I guess like in the middle of my life, I feel like I have this very unique opportunity to be in contact with folks that are in their 20s. And get them. And be in contact with people that are in their 60s and get them right and the 60s people don't get the 20s people, vice versa, they're like, right. But for example, like on Instagram. I know young I have like I have like a young friend who's like if it's not on Instagram, he doesn't even search Google. He only searches Instagram. And I'm like, that's crazy, missing a lot. So I feel like there's a way that we can, like bring forward legacy and history by kind of footnoting influences. Network and it's a sort of for me as a queer artist, it's about kind of paying. I mean, a lot of my works are called homage too. It's literally me saying this is something that was like, somewhat looked at in the course of history, but mostly dismissed. It's a footnote, you know, it's not a main page. However, for me it was incredibly important and so how can I? How can I pay honour to and and also learn from that? So I think that's kind of part of the the engagement with the with the historic is critical. But part of it is also very much about like being appreciative and and and loving you know and acknowledging and bringing forward.
Reed: I have a quick. Question kind of in reference to a piece you didn't speak about in your talk. Hard times. So it's a little bit more supported, but I really loved your use of the incredible prosthetics and I'm wondering if that's something that you did yourself or if you outsource that and if so, kind of what was that experience like and what was that interaction like working with those prosthetics and and you know? How that kind of came to be?
Cassils: Yeah, that's like a pretty early work. I feel like that happened. It was like 2. 1010 two 1009 and. I remember that was like the first massive financial crisis. And and I remember, you know, working in a gym, just like flipping through a bodybuilding magazine and seeing opposing competition that was titled hard times. And I was like, that's really hilarious. It's like a play on the crumbling economy. And it's like a posed down. You know, so I was like, no, that's. That's funny, there's something there. And I guess I've also been thinking about this. This like mythological history of Tiresias. Who was this like blind prophet of thieves who had this gender change? And again, this was like in 2009. And so this like again, not having the words for my identity like finding this myth and things finding a kernel in there and not really being able to. Articulate. I was interested in combining those two concepts. And so I, yeah, I did this bodybuilding pose down competition. I literally like watched bodybuilding competitions and I I like mirrored their choreography. But I did something where when you, when you when you were like posing for competition, it's very much about moving very fluidly. And easily between poses and then holding these hard contractions. But if you hold the contraction for an extended period of time, it creates an overload of your and your muscular system, and your body will start to shake because your brain is sending too many neuromuscular. Firing squads to that muscle belly and it starts to overload. And so I've been seeing a lot of like stores closing and scaffolding. And so I performed it on this like scaffolding, which added this other element that when I would hold these these poses. So I took this. I was playing with speed. And I literally like just stripped the competition. Into. Like I made it into a slow motion, thinking very much about the camera. Thank you very much of the audiences eyes as witnessing rather than like seeing a live performance, I would always. I would almost think of it as live cinema and thinking of the audiences as cameras and like enacting and performing slow motion. But obviously failing because my body wouldn't allow it. Of creating a rupture. The prosthetics was like, I think when you're younger, sometimes you're like and I need this and I need. That, you know, it's kind of. Like that Coco Chanel advice like before, you go out, look into the mirror and take off an. Accessory you know, because you're wearing. Glasses and some lipstick, you. Know like this. Yeah, but for me the prosthetic was like. That became reduced to Tiresias, you know, and even in Tiresias I would wear like these contacts that looked like I had cataracts. And in the end I lost that as well, you know? And when I started with getting an image, I would bite my chest. And by the end, I would perform naked. Like, I feel like there's a way reducing. Oh yeah. You're like at first you're like you must understand. What I'm doing you? Know like and like. As you continue, you're like, actually, there's enough meat there. I can. I can start to boil this down a little bit. But I think the prosthetic was like about wanting to have a sort of jarring effect because the performance starts with my back to the audience and you just see this, like, bombastic blowing big. And so when I turn around and you see this, like terrifying horror of these rotting eyes with our better. Pocketless it's. Really a lot, you know? Yeah. So I think it was like wanting to have that visual effect. And then there's. I should remember the name of it, but there's a really cool makeup store here in Los Angeles that just has, like, the best special effects makeup. And it's like you go in there on Halloween and they'll give you like 3. Free bullet holes or something? Like oh wow, yeah. I went to this like. Is in Los Angeles. Pardon me. This was performed in Los Angeles. Yes. Yeah. OK. And. And so yeah, I just like, took a trip to that store and was able to kind of talk to people. And I I did it myself the first couple of times. And I think, like, I performed it once on the East Coast, and I had a a friend who kind of was like, good at, like, a prosthetic makeup. And he. Helped me kind of. But it wasn't anything super crazy. It was more that was more like. At the point of my career, and I was like 2 sticks to rub together and. Let's make magic, you know. Yeah, right.
Darren: Have a question and maybe you have some advice and I think I found and maybe this won't happen once I'm not in grad school anymore, but I find myself often in critique just wanting to talk about queerness as an umbrella term and sort of people in the critique wanting me to be very specific about, you know. What type of queer are you so that we can approach this in a certain way and me feeling like? That's kind of personal. I don't understand why I have to, like, explain my sexual preferences to this random person that's in my studio. Why can't I just say, you know, I'm under this umbrella and I'm wondering if. That's something that you've ever experienced, and how maybe you've navigated those conversations with people working just just people are driving people totally.
Cassils: You know, like when I was in Graduate School, like, I think I said, one of the reasons we formed the toxic ******* was because we were really like there was no, I mean, we would make work and our fellow graduate students would not understand the work. But our friend who was like a motorcycle mechanic in Los Angeles who like. Didn't graduate from high school, would come up and be able to understand the work, you know. So again, I really think. Like being in these worlds where? It's it's an. It's like frustrating. When you, I felt like I was doing a lot of educating and a lot of explaining and constantly it was almost like the relationship was me giving so much to lay the groundwork so that we could even. Enter in and even then I was so much more versed and I wasn't being met with that reciprocity. Yes. And so you know, for example, I was just, I was teaching at University of Syracuse. Last semester and one of my undergrads kind of explained to me. You know, when I was teaching over zoom and never got to meet in person. But she explained to me just how you know, limited the discussion was around race, you know, for example, and that, you know, when she tried to bring up to her other studio critique class. She was told that she was being too loud and aggressive like all these classic, super racist things were happening to her and she was kind of being gaslit and being told that it was her problem. You know that she needs to put it in terms that others could understand. And and so I was able to. I was like, look, pull together a group of other students that are having this issue and out of the visiting artist that came like, why don't you tell me who you like resonated most with? And let's get you guys like, like, let's get you a studio visit with those people. You know, again, it's about creating. The community, on the flip side, you're going to have to engage with people who don't understand. Queerness is, and that's just a reality, and I think it's a harder thing for younger folks to get than someone like myself because I feel like we're like in a world that's so formed by algorithms and like getting exactly what you want into your little device that we don't like. We get into this mindset of, like, I don't want to talk to anybody outside my bubble. And and I get that. But I do think it's a skill set, so you need to be able to explain to people. That. Understand. But it's very frustrating when you're trying to, like, marinate your own juices and develop a dialogue and grow in that way when you're not having that that mirrored Ness. So I guess my advice would be. Even if they're not artists, get some queer folks to come look at your work, you know, get some, like, non binary folks. Come look at your work like you know and and. Get that feedback? Because I think that's really important, you know, and the work like I always think of art like a sponge that has like many holes and some people who have like an AA or like a background in art history will get this. The other and then some people who have, you know, never studied art at all, will be able to enter into the work in a different way and not get that reference, but can get that reference. So I think all useful. But you do need if that's like a part of your soul that needs feeding like you need to provide yourself with that Reed, if it's not, unfortunately, like, it'd be great. It's already there. It was great. It would be great if there's faculty and students that could, like, bolster that. But the the fact is that's just that's not the case yet. You know, in a lot of universities. And I'm not, like, wagging a finger. It's just it's just the reality, right. We're in the process of trying to make that happen. Hopefully, right, I think. That that's what this whole. You know, couple of years has been about it's like a reckoning and a kind. Of rebalancing so. And in the meantime, Labour. 'S on you, yeah.
Ashton: And if I could jump in with the last question, so you use your body as the subject of your works, to portray your contexts. How do you feel being both the subject and the artist betters your understanding of the work, and how other people understand your work?
Cassils: I mean, I think that's a really complicated question. I think it really gets to the core of what it is that you want to express and how it is that you're going to do it, and just because you yourself are represented, doesn't mean that someone else is going to see it. How do we create these exchanges where we see beyond the surface of our bodies, is something that I'm quite interested in. And I think in my early work, my work was very much focused on my representation, even if I was playing with things like darkness and fire and ice as materials that would create a barrier between you and I. I think a lot of what I was interested in was problematizing this idea of what it was to commodify, and to voyeuristically look at others. So again, I think it really depends on what the goal is, and how you want to get there. I think earlier than that it was like I needed to see representations, and I wasn't. I made those representations in a very visible way, but as I continued, I felt like there was an expectation for me to make a work about a fetishized muscular body, and there's a lot more to my work than that actually. And so I'm going to remove my body, but still place the body as a sort of indexing device: be it leaving you with a sculpture that's formed by a body, or a tank of urine that's an accumulation of fluid that has accumulated due to an oppressive government ordinance, or if it is a glass sculpture that is an encapsulated breath. This idea of thinking about abstraction as a way of speaking to the specifics? Abstraction of something like urine: could have been my urine, your urine, Jason's urine, anybody's urine. So, how do we, instead of saying "well, that's a trans issue", actually, what if you came in and you heard this audio of someone talking about a child's body. What if that was your child? Or your niece? Or you? Is there ways that we can think about bodily function, and the humanity of corporealism, as a way of us being able to engage each other as humans across devices and divides, is something that I'm really interested. I'm less interested in this idea of me speaking for myself, and making work about identity. I mean, that's certainly a part of it, but I'm also very interested in complicating that and thinking about "yes, there is my identity, but where do I end and you start? Where are we in relation to each other? Where if they're coming for you in the morning, they're coming for me at night." People ask a lot about self-care these days, and my question is, isn't self-care about looking after each other? Isn't it about you bolstering each other, such that when you graduate, you can continue to create? There's so many different ways in which, what we do with ourselves, forms the collective. So I am rooted in identity, but I think I'm also very much rooted in community, and I really think that thinking about that relationship is more interesting for me than thinking about the singularity of identity, if that makes sense.
Emily B: Thank you all. Thank you so much for that. It was so informative, so generous, and it was great to hear everybody's thoughts and ideas and and the response was just illuminating. So really appreciate all of that.
Cassils: Yeah, my pleasure. And I can send if you guys are interested in you know that. Legal document I was telling you about to like how to have copyright agreements. And whatnot, I can send you those.
Emily B: That that would be delightful.
Cassils: And you're, you know, share it. You know, like, because you know, we all need to we. All need these tools to empower. Ourselves and each other. Yeah.
Emily B: Thanks everyone. See you second years in our next zoom meeting.
Jason: Thanks everybody. Thank you so much.
Emily B: Thank you.
Jason: And I'll see you in a few minutes. Well, I'll see both of you, Ashton and Cassils in the next meeting in about 25 minutes.
Ashton: Yes.
Jason: Thank you so much.
Danchi: Bye.
Comments